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  1. #1
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    Default Campaign dead end

    Salute all!

    I am publishing here the PM correspondence between Raidou and me. It was kept in private for a few days because i was hoping decision might get changed. Chance for that are unfortunately slim to none, so it would be fair to inform other players.

    Here are the letters:

    Dear Thor,

    The versatility of the dogfight mode in the SEOW, the depth in the mission design system and the international participation, caught our attention from the beginning. Therefore, we accepted your invitation to fly the Sakishima-Okinawa campaign.

    As you may have seen, the E69 was so committed to the SEOW that it ended up accepting the command of the blue side, despite having expressed that we did not want to do it. Later, we had no problem being patient to overcome the inconveniences that arose during the first missions. We were in tests and we understood it, even after the appearance of new Okinawa client mods that, in our view, reduced the operability of our ships and defenses in each new version. And we also find it impossible to design training missions because the FMB wasdeactivated.

    But the situations that have really offended us and that have caused us to send you this message were coming.

    We have faced allied aircraft with Japanese skins, when not directly Japanese aircrafts flown by the red side (we suffered these practices in the last mission, # 6, too). We have endured that the repetition of mission # 5 was not such, but there was a complete readjustment of the red plans with the aim of sinking the Yamato, something that in the original launch could not have been done because it was not even known where it was the ship. As if that were not enough, we felt aggrieved when we found that the new mod 1.5 + quickfix unbalanced the balance in favor of the allies. And to the facts we refer: 15 planes attack the Yamato through its naval escort (8 DD + 1 CA!) and manage to sink it at the cost of a single down(Bigans, with a Corsair), while on our part, three experiencedJapanese pilots attacked the USS Iowa that sailed alone to the NE of Ie Shima without achieving a single impact on the battleship because we were allblow upin less than a minute. The final shot, Thor, was the last minute changes having to perform the Ohkas' attachment to the Bettys on the ground and being vulched by pilots without the slightest scruple. We are tired and have enough of it.

    The JG/26 and JG/2 left the campaign before Christmas and we, for all you can read above, announce that we left the SEOW. Next sunday will be the last fly for us.Thank you very much for everything and we hope you enjoy the campaign until the end of it.

    Yours sincerely

    E69


    Hello Raidou,

    First of all i want to thank you and other guys from E69 that you have accepted to be commander and lead the party for the Axis. There is no more people willing to actually step forward, spend their time and lead the show for he's team/side. This is why SEOW is going to die. Too bad, because new games are nowhere near at this moment.
    I am pretty much sure we are among the last ~100-150 players on the planet who still play this game. Shrink that future more and exclude single mission guys with no interest in commitment over longer period of time. Than find commanders among the ones who left who actually do the work (besides admin and campaign makers) and you will see there are maybe 10 people left altogether. This is why i am thanking you for stepping up!

    From designer/admin point of view, it takes more or less 100 hours just to build decent full aspect campaign for normal coop mode. There is a lot of things what you need to take into consideration which are accumulated trough experience where designer need to think of every possible thing to prevent people from gaming the game, because IL2 is very far from perfect ground war/flying simulator. That lead to great number of rules of engagements (you can find them on this forum) I've been writing in the past. Than people were complaining they need to read the manuals. So, even in known conditions trough last 10-12 years where SEOW was used as normal well known coop, for a designer/admin, it was a struggle between battle you want to simulate and preventing people from destroying the campaign by using not realistic game behaviors.

    Having said that, now imagine situation where all the participants are sort of beta testers. SEOW in dogfight mode and this campaign is exactly this, modification of coop mode SEOW to adapt it for dogfight mode and multiple sorties over single evening.
    If tons of problems can emerge in very well known Coop mode campaigns already used by hundreds of players, what can we expect from something that has never ever been used? Of course there are mods involved, and they were changing from week to week. Almost every mission (except last 2) showed something else. Filling a hole in one place, induce leaks somewhere else, and so on. This java code isn't something i am doing for living (thanks God).
    Than some new weapon float up, which were not in initial design. Should they be included or not? Since they were in the actual battle, don't you think they deserve to get their place in this one too? Than after you include them, oh God, a new mod is out. So what? As long people understand that this mods were in the service of fixing things and getting as much of immersion as possible, it should not be that problematic to download them and use them.

    Quite a few errors that have emerged and become visible after our missions would have never ever been discovered in single player tests no matter how many hours you put in. Naturally, if i saw that i missed something in the .ini files i think i should have every right to change them. For me it is not just a design, but also a server performance task. Errors are dealt with as best as possible


    You said that you understand that, but after you drop some facts that are annoyed to you, i am not sure you actually do understand.

    Let's analyze them one by one:

    1."even after the appearance of new Okinawa client mods that, in our view, reduced the operability of our ships and defenses in each new version" - OK, that means the biggest difference is between 1.0 and 1.5. Just open than 1.0 and 1.5 ships.ini and compare them. Do the same for technics.ini and please tell me what is that handicap that has been set to axis and which was not at the same time applied to allies ships/land units?

    2."And we also find it impossible to design training missions because the FMB wasdeactivated" - There was a situation during mod 1.3 or 1.4 where i forgot to change "All.ini" and FMB fas not working that week if players did not know how to fix that by themselves. If you still experiencing this issue, you messed up something with your mods and you should download 1.5 again.

    3."We have faced allied aircraft with Japanese skins, when not directly Japanese aircrafts flown by the red side (we suffered these practices in the last mission, # 6, too)" - No idea what are you talking about here. Countries were locked on all allied bases so it was impossible for player to select IJA skin. If someone on allied side has made he's own skin and put IJA markings on that skin, well, it is technically possible, but what kind of full that guy must be to provoke after we have already reply one mission because of the real tech error on this matter!?! I don't believe in this possibility.

    4."We have endured that the repetition of mission # 5 was not such, but there was a complete readjustment of the red plans with the aim of sinking the Yamato, something that in the original launch could not have been done because it was not even known where it was the ship." - Oh man, you are so so wrong on this assumption. 310/311/Letka guys had 2 tasks in mission #4. First to destroy the discovered radar on the north and to search for Yamato group. They have accomplish first part but failed to find Yamato group. They had a systematic map where they searched and where was still left to search. Since you parked your ships on the corner, their job and way of search paid off and they launched 2 waves on the group. First with bombs, second with torpedos/bombs. Yamato was sunk also in the mission that was canceled!!! And they have videos and pictures. In the replay, italians joined them in a strike. Now i am talking about 11 pilots doing the same job. Torpedo guys hit Yamato from the distance and have returned home. Italian guys went there with Corsairs and made 2 waves. Than 310/311/letka returned with fighters.
    All together Yamato has suffered 16 various hits which has produced total damage of 126%. In the process allies lost
    14 planes not 1 like you say. Perform attack like that and you can sink any ship on the map.
    Of course it was easier the second time. Just like it was easier for you to attack and kill all of allied B29s. Just like that, you could also strike stationary fleet NE of Okinawa and produce similar result. You knew where it was all the time.

    5."As if that were not enough, we felt aggrieved when we found that the new mod 1.5 + quickfix unbalanced the balance in favor of the allies" - I guess this is connected with 1. and explanation for 1. would also explain 5.

    6."The final shot, Thor, was the last minute changes having to perform the Ohkas' attachment to the Bettys on the ground and being vulched by pilots without the slightest scruple" - You do not think this attaching and ability to strike way more distant than 50km around is appealing enough? Or the problems are few of allied "flyers" which went to do unappropriate thing, which i have addressed officially over the forum? Would that be much better if you just spawn over someone's head? Would B29 spawn, with 20 000lbs each, over let say south parth of the Okinawa be attractive design for axis? I don't think so. I wanted to have Ohkas anyway i can and you even got 2x destructive power version not officially existing in the HSFX. First idea was airstart. Replacing the airstart Ohka was the logical thing to do after i have found out it is possible to attach them in the dogfight too. I made the video, how to do that, you had unlimited lives. What else?

    7."The JG/26 and JG/2 left the campaign before Christmas", "We are tired and have enough of it" - This i something i can not fix! JG 2/26 did not say anything, why, what etc. I didn't even know they quit. So far, as long as i can remember there was not a single campaign where when stuff go just a little "south" someone would not quit. I don't know, is it some pride or something, but for me this is just a game, not a "Hall of fame" contest.
    Actually, the only guys that have never ever quit and have never complained no matter how hard or impossible it was are almighty Finns and us, VARP. Just like us they were always that mopp to wash the floor with, go here, go there take over this job, take over that job. Maybe the problem is in mentality, where others see problem, we see challenge.


    In a nutt shell, unlike axis, allies have only 14 vurneble targets you are already aiming and which could almost completely crush them. On top of that, the hulls and fire rate were lowered long ago (fps reasons), while more powerfull torpedos, Ohkas are became operational. I am sorry, but even though they have chosen completely bad locations, they are fighting hard to prevent you from strikes which kills more planes than any of us can ever do while is way more easier to approach CV's in the game than it was in reality, and i am not gonna make it easier than this. It is attack leader job to organize attack depending on how some formation looks like, stationary, moving, protected, not protected etc.

    So, i would really like that you read all of this points and reconsider your decision, especially because it is based on wrong assumptions that someone is trying to cheat you!!! Also, as was always, i am on any commander service, but you need to ask.

    Now just my 2 questions:

    1.What would you change in the campaign (and why) which would make you stay?

    2.Would you like to surrender in this one so we switch sides to prove axis have no chance to win?

    Cheers,

    Thor




    Hello Thor,

    First, I have to say that the letter I sent you was wrote by all the E69 pilots not only me.


    Now I'm going to say my personal opinion and what I saw until now:

    I understand what you are talking about. We are few people playing this game in the World and a SEOW is a good way to play together. I know that you must have spent 300+ hours in this and you want everything end well.

    Before the start of the SEOW I was really happy to fly it because it was my first SEOW and the veteran pilots were euphoric. Mission after mission we lost more and more pilots and we felt like the red side was cheating. Yes, we knew we had a great disadvantage but we felt and feel that way.

    After mission 5 some squadrons didn't come anymore and the E69 was divided in two factions, one wanted to stop flying the SEOW and the other one wanted to endure till the end. Because I was in the latter one (sometimes I wanted to leave) and I was doing most of the job (mission planning, brief, contacting with you...) most of the E69 decided to fly those missions because of me and in the name of the E69.

    Like I said I was in the group that wanted to endure till the end until last week.
    We have been training every week with the Ohkas since before the first mission 5 so we can now fly them more than 100 km and have some altitude and fuel to reach any ship. The past Wednesday I worked 3 hours writing the Brief for mission 6 and finished around 23:45. Then, I came to this forum to found that you decided to change the Ohkas' mission without even notifying us about it, only 4 days before the mission. That hurt me so much that I decided I didn't want to spend my free time doing something I didn't have fun.

    After that I told to my squadron that I didn't want to work on this anymore so is my fault that we are leaving. I'm sorry about this but I'm tired.

    Before sending that letter to you we, the E69, thought in two options:

    1- Continuing doing the missions destroying all possible aircraft in each mission. If we did that this SEOW would finish in 4 or 5 missions because we have only 400+ aircrafts.

    2- Instead of sabotage your SEOW we decided to leave the SEOW.

    I've copied/pasted your answer to our letter to the E69 forum and the most of us think that your comments are very convincing but our problem is that the most of us aren't having fun flying. Some of them want to continue and, in my opinion, If they are having fun flying then they can fly.



    Yours,
    Raidou



    Hello,

    I can see you did not change your decision nor chose to switch sides. If there is no fun, than there is no point to continue.

    No problem, we gonna play this last mission this Sunday and we gonna stop. I am saying that because I doubt that anyone else will take over command of axis side. I am also tired of begging people to take over some job and do work for others so all of us could have fun.

    Since i don't think we have anything to hide, i am gonna publish our corespondence to public. People have the right to know why something is like it is.

    Cheers m8!

    Thor
    Last edited by =VARP=Thor; 25-01-2019 at 13:40.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Campaign dead end

    I just spoke with Thor about the message above


    it is a shame that adrmisitrative conflict always happens while one is there to enjoy one's moment
    finally we still want to win the human nature is like this

    I'm ready to go on the blue side to take the role of commander

    some will think that I am red in this campaign yes I am currently and that if I pass the blue side is bad but if I do it is just to enjoy his moment and extend the maximum campaign

    and for those who think I know the position of the red unit and forces them in the presence yes I know them so yes even if I do unknown the red situation there will still be an impact on the continuation of this campaign

    and as far as the scenario is concerned, I ejected on a japanai basis and oblige and fight my old ally
    (It's ridiculous but I could not find anything better for the moment)

    but who consorts the passage of the blue cot I will take this role after this Sunday 27

    this is what I propose, debate?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Campaign dead end

    I have absolutely nothing against you going blue and lead blue, regardless you know current allied positions. It is really not that hard to find anything on this map within one single mission.
    For this Sunday (27.1) both sides have their plans ready or almost ready, so transition can be made after 27.1. like you already wrote.
    The question is will blue side accept you and do you have enough pilots to continue on blue side. If at least part of E69 stay and play, it is possible to continue. After all, there are all veterans currently on the axis side.
    I appreciate your volunteer spirit Savoyard!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Campaign dead end

    No problems what so ever with changing side Savoyard and thank you for that.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Campaign dead end

    I would try to order for the rest of the campaign. But if the pilots are no longer motivated on our side, there is no more interest.

    @Raidou: How many of you (E69) are going to keep coming?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Campaign dead end

    Ok, then 615sqn_Savoyard will be the new blue commander after next Sunday. That is perfect.

    Otsu, I'll ask the E69 how many of them will continue flying.




    Thanks for your understanding.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Campaign dead end

    Italians are available to switch on axis side, if required.
    Anyway no cons against moving allied players to axis side in the middle of the campaign.
    Dont give up.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Campaign dead end

    Moin comrades,
    just a short statement from me.
    Even though I do not understand much about the SEOW system,
    my greatest respect is Thor for his all the time and work he invests to make it possible at all!
    Also, I think it's great that Savoyard and Otsu agree to take command of Blue.
    For my part, I can only say that until the end of this SEOW campaign, I am on a blue side, even though I should be the only one.)))
    Gruß Amarok

  9. #9

    Default Re: Campaign dead end

    awesome amarok
    I was impatient last April to be able to fly with you all on a new campaign but even if there is internal conflict it must not be able to prevent flying, fly all together even if we are not in training,
    to have the look sharp, to always look around, to survive in situation situation ................. all the little habit and all that with other pilots of this small family who fly still on this dinosor of il-2 1946

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Campaign dead end

    S!

    We finns welcome our new Emperor

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